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Demande #5803

Evolution proposant des instances Gitea dédiées et louées au mois / Proposal for an evolution that consists of providing dedicated Gitea instances, rented by the month

Added by Loïc Dachary 4 months ago. Updated 4 months ago.

Status:
Rejeté
Priority:
Élevée
Assignee:
Target version:
Start date:
03/02/2022
Due date:
% Done:

0%

Estimated time:

Description

Version en Français: Evolution proposant des instances Gitea dédiées et louées au mois, dans la lignée de ce que fait https://discourse.org/ ou https://indiehosters.net/. C'est dans la continuité d'une idée élaborée début février dans le contexte du projet Gitea https://discourse.gitea.io/t/gitea-software-as-a-service-offering/4608. Il s'agirait de:

  • Permettre des dépôts privés contenant des données auquelles Chapril n'accède pas, comme pour Nextcloud ou Firefox send
  • Activer la fonctionalité de publication de sites webs statiques actuellement impossible afin de ne pas engager la responsabilité éditoriale de l'April
  • Activer l'intégration continue via woodpecker
  • Ajouter un service de partage de snippets de code équivalent à https://gist.github.com/ sans engager la responsabilité éditoriale de l'April
  • Dégager la responsabilité de l'April: l'instance dédiée est sous le contrôle éditorial de la personne qui paye, la responsabilité d'April n'est pas engagée. (i) une VM est provisionnée chez OVH sur un compte au nom du payeur, (ii) Chapril fait l'infogérance technique de l'instance (installation + upgrades + security), (iii) une éventuelle plainte adressée à l'hébergeur OVH sera envoyée au client d'OVH qui est le payeur et non l'April.
  • Contribuer à la durabilité du financement de Chapril

Le travail de réalisation et de maintenance repose sur Aravinth and Loïc, voir https://pad.batsense.net/wiEY8U7pSpCuZLz7gZVJoQ?view# et les liens associés pour plus d'information

English version: Proposal for an evolution that consists of providing dedicated Gitea instances, rented by the month, in line with what https://discourse.org/ or https://indiehosters.net/ do. It is the continuation of an idea developed early February in the context of the Gitea project https://discourse.gitea.io/t/gitea-software-as-a-service-offering/4608. It would be about:

  • Allowing private repositories containing data that will never be accessed by Chapril, as for Nextcloud or Firefox send
  • Activating the static web site server that is currently impossible because its content would be under the legal responsibility of April
  • Activating the CI via woodpecker
  • Adding a snippet sharing service similar to https://gist.github.com/ for which April would not be responsible, whatever it publishes
  • Relieve April from legal responsibility: the content of the dedicated instance is under the responsibility of the person who pays for it. (i) a VM is provisioned at OVH under an account that is in the name of the person who pays for it, (ii) Chapril does the technical management of the instance (installation + upgrades + security), (iii) should a complaint be sent to OVH, it will be forwarded directly to the person who pays and not April.
  • Contribute to the long term financial sustainability of Chapril

The work to make this happen as well as the maintenance done by Aravinth and Loïc, see https://pad.batsense.net/wiEY8U7pSpCuZLz7gZVJoQ?view# and the associated links for more information

Q: What would be the impact for the current users?
A: The goal is that it has no impact on users that do not need this service, i.e. users that do not use a lot of resources or do not need privacy for the projects that are not public.

Q: What would be the impact for the current Chapril admins?
A: The goal is that it would have no impact at all.

Q: How different would be the ToS compared to the current forge?
A: They would allow unlimited usage of the resources (bandwidth + disk + CPU), private repositories that will never be looked at by the admin staff, just as Nextcloud or Firefox send, Continuous Integration, static pages, Gist.

Q: Where would these additional services reside?
A: On the same virtual machine as the Gitea instance.

Q: Why can't this project be run by a new organization?
A: Because reaching out to users for such a service from scratch requires skills that neither I or realaravinth have. We do have the technical skills and the time to create and maintain such a service in a context where there already are users and an already existing organization.

Q: In which context (volunteering, freelancing, other ?) would this work be done ?
A: The work would be done on a volunteer basis by both realaravinth and myself. We would count the number of hours spent on the project at our respective hourly rate (12€/h for realaravinth and 35h/h for myself). Instead of accounting for them as "bénévolat valorisé" (which means essentially that we will never be paid for this time) we would keep a separate ledger. When and if the service is profitable, we would invoice April and be paid with these profits. In other words we would be paid only if there is money for us to be paid, otherwise we won't.

Q: How would April's responsibility be relieved?
A: The virtual machine that is managed by April (via Chapril) is in the name of the person who pays for the service. April has the same lack of editorial responsibility than OVH towards the clients that rent a virtual machine.

History

#1

Updated by Loïc Dachary 4 months ago

This project was added to the agenda of the monthly Chapril meeting https://pad.april.org/p/reunion-chapril-sprint-janvier-2022#L201 and announced it for preliminary questions in the chat room yesterday as follows:

pour info je vais proposer une idée à la prochaine réunion Chapril le 8. J'ai mis une courte description ici: https://pad.april.org/p/reunion-chapril-sprint-janvier-2022#L201 et je serais ravi d'en discuter plus en détail avant la réunion pour mieux préparer le terrain

English translation:

for information I'm proposing an idea for the next Chapril meeting on the 8th. I added a short description here: https://pad.april.org/p/reunion-chapril-sprint-janvier-2022#L201 and I'll be happy to discuss it in more detail before the meeting to better prepare the ground.

It was then suggested that a mail is sent for discussion on the animsys@ mailing list. This issue was created instead so that Aravinth can participate, because the animsys@ mailing is list is private. And there is nothing confidential regarding this project and therefore no blocker to have this discussion in public.

#2

Updated by Loïc Dachary 4 months ago

The following email was sent upon fcouchet request to the animsys mailing list to invite everyone to participate in the discussion:

Subject: Evolution proposant des instances Gitea dédiées et louées au mois

Bonjour,

Vous êtes cordialement invités à discuter du sujet dans ce ticket https://agir.april.org/issues/5803 Une personne impliquée dans ce projet n'a pas accès à cette liste privée, raison pour laquelle je propose que nos échanges aient lieu dans ce ticket plutot qu'ici. Il n'y a rien de confidentiel de toute façon :-)

A++

In English:

Hi,

You are kindly invited to discuss this topic in this issue https://agir.april.org/issues/5803 A person involved in the project does not have access to this private list, reason why I propose the discussion happens in this issue instead of the mailing list. There is nothing confidential anyways :-)

Cheers

#3

Updated by Pierre-Louis Bonicoli 4 months ago

Concernant le service actuel, quels seraient les impacts:
  • pour ses utilisateurs ?
  • sur sa gestion par les animsys et les adminsys ?

Pourquoi ce projet ne serait-il pas réalisé par un nouveau chaton ou au sein d'un chaton qui ne propose pas un service de forge ? Ne vaut-il pas mieux multiplier les chatons ?

This project was added to the agenda of the monthly Chapril meeting https://pad.april.org/p/reunion-chapril-sprint-janvier-2022#L201

C'est l'agenda d'une réunion passée.

Le travail de réalisation et de maintenance repose sur Aravinth and Loïc

A quel titre (bénévolat, prestations, autres ?) ce travail serait-il réalisé ?

Permettre des dépôts privés contenant des données auquelles Chapril n'accède pas

Le chaton de l'April souhaite-t-il cela ? Ce n'est pas ce qui a été décidé lors de la réunion animsys de septembre 2021. Si cela était permis, ne faudrait-il pas soit modifier les CGU afin d'accepter les contenus non libres sur les dépôts privés, soit ne pas accepter les dépôts privés ?

Dégager la responsabilité de l'April

Comment la responsabilité de l'April serait-elle dégagée ? Le Chapril ne serait plus le chaton de l'April ?

Financer durablement Chapril

« Rien n’est éternel » mais le Chapril n'est-il pas financé par l'April de manière durable ? L'April envisage-t-elle l'arrêt du financement d'un ou plusieurs services ?

Activer l'intégration continue via woodpecker

Est ce qu'il y a une estimation du coût de ce service ?

#4

Updated by Loïc Dachary 4 months ago

Le sujet a été ajouté à l'agenda de la prochaine réunion du 8 mars 2022 https://pad.april.org/p/reunion-chapril-sprint-mars-2022#L169

#5

Updated by Loïc Dachary 4 months ago

Concernant le service actuel, quels seraient les impacts:
  • pour ses utilisateurs ?
    Regarding the current service, what would be the impact for:
  • its users ?

The goal is that it has no impact on users that do not need this service, i.e. users that do not use a lot of resources or do not need privacy for the projects that are not public.

  • sur sa gestion par les animsys et les adminsys ?
  • how animsys (people in charge of a service run under Chapril) and adminsys (system administrators who care for the underlying infrastructure, hardware, firewalls, hypervisors...) would be impacted?

The goal is that it would have no impact at all, unless animsys or adminsys are interested.

Pourquoi ce projet ne serait-il pas réalisé par un nouveau chaton ou au sein d'un chaton qui ne propose pas un service de forge ? Ne vaut-il pas mieux multiplier les chatons ?
why can't this project be run by a new organization (CHATON in the sense member of https://chatons.org) or within a chaton who does not already propose a forge service? Is it not better to multiply the chatons?

Because reaching out to users for such a service from scratch requires skills that neither I or realaravinth have. We do have the technical skills and the time to create and maintain such a service in a context where there already are users and an already existing organization.

Le travail de réalisation et de maintenance repose sur Aravinth and Loïc

A quel titre (bénévolat, prestations, autres ?) ce travail serait-il réalisé ?
In which context (volunteering, freelancing, other ?) would this work be done ?

The work would be done on a volunteer basis by both realaravinth and myself. We would count the number of hours spent on the project at our respective hourly rate (12€/h for realaravinth and 35h/h for myself). Instead of accounting for them as "bénévolat valorisé" (which means essentially that we will never be paid for this time) we would keep a separate ledger. When and if the service is profitable, we would invoice April and be paid with these profits. In other words we would be paid only if there is money for us to be paid, otherwise we won't.

Permettre des dépôts privés contenant des données auquelles Chapril n'accède pas

Le chaton de l'April souhaite-t-il cela ? Ce n'est pas ce qui a été décidé lors de la réunion animsys de septembre 2021. Si cela était permis, ne faudrait-il pas soit modifier les CGU afin d'accepter les contenus non libres sur les dépôts privés, soit ne pas accepter les dépôts privés ?

Allowing private repositories containing data that will never be accessed by Chapril

Does the April Chaton (Chapril) want that? It is not what was decided during the september 2021 meeting . If that was allowed, wouldn't it be necessary to modify the ToS so as to accept non free content in the private repositories, or to not accept private repositories at all?

The decision is about the shared forge https://forge.chapril.org and the ToS of this forge do not need to be modified for this proposal to be implemented. New and different ToS will have to be created to cover what is acceptable and what is not acceptable for a Gitea dedicated instance. For instance it could allow unlimited usage of the resources (bandwidth + disk + CPU), private repositories that will never be looked at by the admin staff for any reason, CI, static pages, Gist. And it would require that all publicly available repositories are under a Free Software license and subject to the same scrutiny as the shared forge. It would make no sense for April to host forges that publicly provide non free software, it would even go against its goal. Not to mention that it would also go against our shared values as individuals.

Dégager la responsabilité de l'April

Comment la responsabilité de l'April serait-elle dégagée ? Le Chapril ne serait plus le chaton de l'April ?

La machine virtuelle infogérée par l'April (via Chapril) est au nom de la personne qui paye. L'April n'a pas plus de responsabilité éditoriale que OVH n'en a lorsqu'ils louent une machine virtuelle.

Relieve April from legal responsibility:

How would April's responsibility be relieved? Would Chapril no longer be the chaton of April?

The virtual machine that is managed by April (via Chapril) is in the name of the person who pays for the service. April has the same lack of editorial responsibility than OVH towards the clients that rent a virtual machine.

This is an aspect that requires proper legal advice to be conclusive and reassuring to both Chapril and April board members. I am ready to do the necessary work to clear this in a satisfactory way.

Financer durablement Chapril

« Rien n’est éternel » mais le Chapril n'est-il pas financé par l'April de manière durable ? L'April envisage-t-elle l'arrêt du financement d'un ou plusieurs services ?

Not to my knowledge. This would be an additional source of funding and therefore contribute to the durability of the Chapril project within April in the long run.

Activer l'intégration continue via woodpecker

Est ce qu'il y a une estimation du coût de ce service ?

The goal is that all services are integrated in a single virtual machine. The gitea instance runs on a virtual machine alongside woodpecker, static pages, etc. Whenver the resources of this machines are too tight, the customer can upgrade to a larger virtual machine.

I think your question was based on the assumption that the woodpecker service would be shared between Gitea instances, is that correct?

Thanks a lot for taking the time to look into this proposal in great detail. I apologize for not translating all my answers in French: I assume you read English fine. I'm however very happy to translate your replies from French to Enlglish for the benefit of realaravinth. I actually promised him that I would be his official translator in this discussion and in the course of the project, should it be allowed to move forward within Chapril. He would otherwise be unable to participate, understandably :-)

I hope I answered your questions to your satisfaction but do not hesistate to ask more, in this issue or during the meeting next week.

#6

Updated by Loïc Dachary 4 months ago

  • Description updated (diff)
#7

Updated by Loïc Dachary 4 months ago

I added a Q&A section to the description, based on the previous message.

#8

Updated by Loïc Dachary 4 months ago

The following article summarizes my view on the moderation of private repositories. In a nutshell, moderation based on quantitative measures is good. https://forum.forgefriends.org/t/privacy-expectations-in-private-repositories-hosted-on-public-forges/644

#9

Updated by Frédéric Couchet 4 months ago

Pour résumer mon point de vue après lecture rapide (tl;dr : je suis opposé à la proposition) :

  • la responsabilité de l'April sera de toutes façons engagée à un niveau ou un autre à partir du moment où une personne nous paye pour un service rendu, je ne crois pas du tout au fait que nous serons dégagés de toute responsabilité
  • concerant le financement du Chapril
  • pour la partie matérielle (location des serveurs notamment) le financement est prévu par l'April et ce financement est durable, c'est un engagement de l'April
  • pour la partie humaine, il a été clair dès le départ que les services du Chapril reposent sur du bénévolat. Un temps salarié est utilisé (le mien) notamment pour l'animation du Chapril suite au départ de Christian (qui était bénévole) et de l'aide technique limitée, et ce temps d'animation sera utilisé tant que c'est nécessaire. Ceci dit, l'animation peut aussi se faire de manière bénévole comme ça a été le cas entre le démarrage du Chapril et le départ de Christian. Rappelons que l'admin sys côté système d'information de l'April repose aussi sur du bénévolat. J'assure le rôle de « product owner » et d'aide technique. Il est possible que dans le futur nous estimerions nécessaire d'envisager le recrutement d'une personne au profil technique (devops par exemple) pour aider les bénévoles dans les tâches admin sys coté April et admin sys/animys côté Chapril. Mais dans ce cas, le financement se fera en suivant les principe de départ de financement l'April : d'abord les cotisations puis les dons. Nous n'avons pas comme modèle de proposer des « services » contre rémumération ponctuelles ou récurrentes. Le financement Chapril, s'il doit y en avoir un, passera donc par un encouragement à des dons pour soutenir l'ensemble des services Chapril, quelque soit le ou les services utilisés par la personne qui fait le don
  • Le type de service proposé devrait l'être par un nouveau Chaton dédié à ce genre de service ou au sein d'un Chaton déjà existant et dont le mode de financement est compatible avec ce qui est proposé
#10

Updated by Loïc Dachary 4 months ago

Translation for the benefit of Aravinth:

To summarize my point of view, after a quick read (tl;dr : I oppose the proposal) :

  • The responsibility of April will be engaged, one way or the other, since a new person pays for a service and I do not believe April will not be liable.
  • Regarding financing Chapril
    • For the hardware part (renting machines) April is committed to it in a durable way
    • For the humane part, it was clear since the beginning that the Chapril services are based on volunteering. My time as an April paid staff is currently dedicated to coordinating Chapril because the previous person Christian (who was a volunteer) left. And it will last as long as it is required. However, coordinating Chapril can also be done in a volunteer way, as it was before Christian left. System administration for other April resources also relies on volunteers. I'm the "product owner" and technical help. It is possible that, in the future, it will be necessary to recruit someone with a technical background (devops for instance) to help volunteers with system adminstration tasks on both April and Chapril. But in this case the funding will be in line with what April did since the begining: first members subscriptions, then donations. We do not propose services in exchange for a fee. The funding of Chapril, if there must be one, will therefore be grounded in an call for donations to support all Chapril services, regardless of the services used by the person donating.

The kind of service that is proposed should be provided by a new organization (Chaton) dedicated to that kind of service or within an existing organization (Chaton) for which the funding model is compatible with what is proposed.

#11

Updated by Loïc Dachary 4 months ago

Thank you all for taking the time to look into this proposal and clearly articulate your point of view.

@Frédéric since you are opposed to the proposal in your capacity as executive director of April, there is no point in discussing this further and I will mark this as rejected.

#12

Updated by Loïc Dachary 4 months ago

  • Status changed from En cours de traitement to Rejeté
#13

Updated by Loïc Dachary 4 months ago

  • Status changed from Rejeté to En cours de traitement

Je laisse l'initiative de changer le status de ce ticket à quelqu'un d'autre.

#14

Updated by Frédéric Couchet 4 months ago

  • Status changed from En cours de traitement to Rejeté

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